View Full Version : One vs many?
Andrew Past
29-11-2007, 14:42
I don't know how this might work, but with the spectator class, do you think it would work to make a one (or just a couple) vs many FA? Ideas could be an alternate version of Doomgiver, other different missions involving Kyle, Dash, Luke, Vader, Boba, etc.
We could also do a few vs many. This would be good for FAs concering Delta squad or other elite clone units. I would love to see a FA where Delta squad is fighting a ton of droids. :D
Such maps are usually quite boring for the ones who aint "the one"
unfortunately the code is apparently very shoddy, so things are, for now, stuck the way they are. If the community were a little more mature then these FAs would work, but, as it is now, everyone wants to be the one or few.
If it could be set up so that while queued for the one or few you play as the grunts on the OTHER team, then these FAs would work perfectly, but, as I said, that's not how it is and likely how it won't be for a while.
obiwan3001
29-11-2007, 18:56
Yeah, instead of like TradeFed, the non-super classes that were spectator become base class 1 on other team. would be nice.
Andrew Past
29-11-2007, 19:34
unfortunately the code is apparently very shoddy, so things are, for now, stuck the way they are. If the community were a little more mature then these FAs would work, but, as it is now, everyone wants to be the one or few.
If it could be set up so that while queued for the one or few you play as the grunts on the OTHER team, then these FAs would work perfectly, but, as I said, that's not how it is and likely how it won't be for a while.
Wow... that's an awesome idea. I think I'll present it to the coders later. :p
Plus, it'd be awesome to watch and, with teamwork, the many could win without too much effort, if the FA is done right. (Thank God for map testers. xD)
anyway that kind of FAs have a basic problem
few people --------------> the one wins (aka luke, vader, whoever)
medium amount of pple---> even
too many people---------> the one get pwnt
so, no matther how you do it, it will be like this (imo)
obiwan3001
29-11-2007, 20:50
I've seen TradeFed FA 24 people on server sold spamming droids.
Jedi won by OBJ, since that turns into about 52 people to kill over and over, just they had to be able to win by OBJ and if solds use a hitn of teamwork of blasting the back of them, they usualy win.
It just needs a bit of refining. Let me explain.
People choose the "Super" class, but they don't get it this round, so they should spawn on the enemy team in the soldier spot. The soldier spot should be limited to whatever is balanced for the FA, and anyone who goes over that limit is forced into a spectator class. That way, you never get 10 soldiers more than the map is supposed to have, and you also get to keep people playing as much as posssible.
Wow... that's an awesome idea. I think I'll present it to the coders later. :p
Plus, it'd be awesome to watch and, with teamwork, the many could win without too much effort, if the FA is done right. (Thank God for map testers. xD)
actually, I already presented it to the coders; that's where I picked up the insight that the FA observer code is very unstable and not likely to be touched any time soon.
MandaloreBIC
30-11-2007, 01:14
actually, I already presented it to the coders; that's where I picked up the insight that the FA observer code is very unstable and not likely to be touched any time soon.
doesn't have to be a new code, maybe you can write the mbch file in such a way that it redirects to the other team's mbch file?
The Swashbuckler
30-11-2007, 02:09
FA's like this are easy to make if you make all of the classes fun to play, and even easier if you ensure that the team with just one or a few players is ultimately weaker. In an FA where the idea is to have a few strong players against several weak players, balance isn't really a true option anyway, and individual skill and teamwork end up having a larger effect on the success of the weaker team.
Generally, though, it's easier to have an FA with a few players on one team against a large number of very weak players than just one player against many (which is more like a tweak of the usual duel setup). Balance between classes is always possible, but having a single strong player on one team up against a lot of very weak players can work, provided you get creative with the weapons, HP, and reinforcement numbers of the larger team.
doesn't have to be a new code, maybe you can write the mbch file in such a way that it redirects to the other team's mbch file?
If that worked then there wouldn't be a problem at all :rolleyes:
FA's like this are easy to make if you make all of the classes fun to play, and even easier if you ensure that the team with just one or a few players is ultimately weaker. In an FA where the idea is to have a few strong players against several weak players, balance isn't really a true option anyway, and individual skill and teamwork end up having a larger effect on the success of the weaker team.
Generally, though, it's easier to have an FA with a few players on one team against a large number of very weak players than just one player against many (which is more like a tweak of the usual duel setup). Balance between classes is always possible, but having a single strong player on one team up against a lot of very weak players can work, provided you get creative with the weapons, HP, and reinforcement numbers of the larger team.
well I've seen a handful of people claim that Trade Federation FA is their favorite FA, or very high on the list. Proof that it CAN work. It's just not as likely to succeed as OMG, HE HAS SOMETHING THAT THAT CLASS WOULDN'T HAVE ON OPEN MODE, THIS IS SO FUN I'M GONNA **** MY PANTS XD
=Someone=
30-11-2007, 03:34
Such maps are usually quite boring for the ones who aint "the one"
Word.
I don't think you can balance those in any classical sense either, the more people you have on the large team, the more the game will get skewed towards them. The only thing you can do is try to tone down the increase of difficulty that comes with each new player, so it doesn't get too hard - and thus frustrating - too fast.
Low hp, lots of reinforcements as the foundation of most classes on the large team might be the best way to go, so the small team doesn't have to spend too much time on an individual kill.
in order to do a some vs many FA, you really need to make a some vs many map to go with it tbh. While it CAN work, like in tradefed, it's a much better idea to make the map fit the FA in this case.
In Assassin's Creed, for example, before you regain the counterkill ability, fighting many many opponents means you're pretty ****ed. However, using your environment, you can easily reduce the efficiency of the large numbers. For example, go on a roof top. The masses of people climb up and you use the large numbers in a very small platform to knock off multiple enemies either so they die on contact with the cruel ground below them, or they have to spend time getting back up while you deal with the smaller numbers.
Or like the movie 300 (with historical backing, so no, it's not too ridiculous) when they forced large numbers into a narrow bottleneck.
A map CAN be made to easily fit a one vs many FA. It's one thing I'm thinking about doing when I have more experience in mapping (which has been halted for a bit since my computer's had a really crazy trojan for a little over a month now)
=Someone=
30-11-2007, 03:47
In Assassin's Creed, for example, before you regain the counterkill ability, fighting many many opponents means you're pretty ****ed. However, using your environment, you can easily reduce the efficiency of the large numbers. For example, go on a roof top. The masses of people climb up and you use the large numbers in a very small platform to knock off multiple enemies either so they die on contact with the cruel ground below them, or they have to spend time getting back up.
Or like the movie 300 (with historical backing, so no, it's not too ridiculous) when they forced large numbers into a narrow bottleneck.
I don't think either of those settings would work in MB2, at least not for long.
At first people might just curse the guys (ab)using those map spots like there's no tomorrow, from calling them "lame" to "campers", etc.
Once people get to know the spots better, I'm sure they'd prevent the small team from getting there to begin with, or sabotage their efforts otherwise (i.e. "let's just not go into that bottleneck/on that platform"), or, if that's not possible, stop playing the map entirely.
Basically, I don't believe a map laid out to suit only one certain playstyle could be successful in the long run. Everyone gets bored of doing the same thing over and over again, especially when you're on the receiving end.
To add to that, I think a good game/map gives every player equal chances to be "the hero", or at least the illusion of it. That's way harder to recreate if they find themselves on either an overpowered small team, or in the bulk of a large team that can't take the enemy down without teamwork. TF does quite a good job in getting close to that "sweet spot" with the way the FA is set up and the whole movie feel to it - and still it's quite rarely played.
On a sidenote: just reformat and get it over with. ;)
I have to back up my music, pictures, and maps first.
And you're not taking my post correctly. I didn't mean to make a setting similar to Assassin's or 300. I was just demonstrating ways an environment can change the effectiveness of numbers.
How about a Star Wars example. Death Star rescue, Han Solo messes up in the little comm session with the imperial (though it was hilarious in classic Han fashion), and the Storm Troopers come bursting in the door. The rebels, severely outnumbered, blast away at the small opening. Once they're overrun they retreat to the garbage shoot, leaving the large number of enemies behind and going on to face them at a later junction.
Giving the smaller team regenerative HP a la Heroes would be a great way to allow for mixed confrontations to work.
You could also make it a cat and mouse type map.
There's lots of ways to do it, and I'm kind of exhausted so I don't really feel like going into it, but with even a little creativity there's a lot you could do to make a some vs many FA rather interesting and situationally balanced.
=Someone=
30-11-2007, 04:55
And you're not taking my post correctly. I didn't mean to make a setting similar to Assassin's or 300. I was just demonstrating ways an environment can change the effectiveness of numbers.
Hmm, not sure where I expressed myself wrong, or if at all, but anyways - what I meant was that environmental bias on a map gets old pretty fast. To put it very simple, maybe people are willing to run into the same trap twice or three times, but after that, it just gets boring and annoying.
Take a classical MB2 situation: If a saberist runs away from me, being a gunner, towards the catwalks neat the DotF gen, I usually leave him alone and go to the throne. I know he has an advantage in areas where he can push me over the edge, so why should I bother to fight him there?
Same with any other environmental bias - least thing people do is to evade it.
Azuvector
30-11-2007, 05:19
doesn't have to be a new code, maybe you can write the mbch file in such a way that it redirects to the other team's mbch file?
No. And Pilo_T's right: the spectator class code is very delicate and easy to break. Queuing on the alternate team has been something that's been desired pretty much from the getgo of the spec class, but it's yet to be realized.
I don't think you can balance those in any classical sense either, the more people you have on the large team, the more the game will get skewed towards them. The only thing you can do is try to tone down the increase of difficulty that comes with each new player, so it doesn't get too hard - and thus frustrating - too fast.
'bout it. The only exception I'd state to this is perhaps the use of Deadly Sight level 3, given that it has no real constraints on the number of people at once it can kill, so it's "equally" fair against 1 or 30 people and requires no large investment of attention on one target.
I'd like to see a map where a single very powerful Sith is hunted by a ton of strong(Say no to Soldspam.) gunners, personally.
MandaloreBIC
30-11-2007, 05:31
No. And Pilo_T's right: the spectator class code is very delicate and easy to break. Queuing on the alternate team has been something that's been desired pretty much from the getgo of the spec class, but it's yet to be realized.
'bout it. The only exception I'd state to this is perhaps the use of Deadly Sight level 3, given that it has no real constraints on the number of people at once it can kill, so it's "equally" fair against 1 or 30 people and requires no large investment of attention on one target.
I'd like to see a map where a single very powerful Sith is hunted by a ton of strong(Say no to Soldspam.) gunners, personally.
it'd only be fair if the sith had at least 200 fp or 2x regen, votj style
as for the coding, isn't it possible to write a single mbch file that tells everyone who is in the query to go to another class instead of the soldier class? (like the current one, but not nessarrily into the unlimited slot)
Hmm, not sure where I expressed myself wrong, or if at all, but anyways - what I meant was that environmental bias on a map gets old pretty fast. To put it very simple, maybe people are willing to run into the same trap twice or three times, but after that, it just gets boring and annoying.
Take a classical MB2 situation: If a saberist runs away from me, being a gunner, towards the catwalks neat the DotF gen, I usually leave him alone and go to the throne. I know he has an advantage in areas where he can push me over the edge, so why should I bother to fight him there?
Same with any other environmental bias - least thing people do is to evade it.
and if the main objective were on the other side of the gen room catwalks?
No one ever had a problem with the Tantive bottleneck except when explosive/push spam was involved.
MandaloreBIC
30-11-2007, 06:13
and if the main objective were on the other side of the gen room catwalks?
No one ever had a problem with the Tantive bottleneck except when explosive/push spam was involved.
would be awesome if the "one"'s stats are multiplied by the number of enemies
for example
health equation
h=160+10n-5s
h would be the health of "the one"
n is the number of enemies
s is the number of people waiting for the class
I'm going to give my professional opinion and say that's not ever going to happen.
Andrew Past
30-11-2007, 22:36
One possibility is to make it where both teams have several different spawn points. The "one" could have a few different objectives, with a couple ways to do them. Or add certain parts of the map that allow the "one" can retreat and reevaluate the situation when he's in trouble that only a couple/few of many can reach. Then, add doors, passages, etc. that only the many can access to quickly move between objective options, possibly allowing the "one" a hackable or destructible to gain access to maybe one door or passage. So, in other words... the "one" can't get through many non-main doors or passageways, so he has to take vents, make holes via explosives/lightsaber, use his superior agility to go up/around, etc. Then, the many can't reach vents, aren't as agile, and wouldn't make holes in their own base. You could also add various traps to a map for either one team or the other or both to use. Also, give the many a couple of decent classes. Add ways for either the many to get items or weapons.
A couple ideas for the one:
Dark Trooper test:
Dark trooper with regenerative jetpack with low initial fuel, about enough to move around or make quick escapes without allowing the user to fly around endlessly
Concussion rifle
Imperial Repeater (Clone rifle 2 or 3. Or SBD arm, I don't know how the DTs fired)
Disruptor 1
Possibly other weapons, I never played the original DF :x
200 hp 100 armor
SBD's no head or chest damage modifier
Mando speed
Magnetic Plating
Blast Armor
Boba Fett:
Jetpack would act similar to the DT's, but with more initial fuel, but lower regen rate.
Pistol 2 or 3 (maybe)
EE-3 3
Disruptor 1 or 2
Possibly a TD
ET or Hero speed
100 hp 150 armor
Flamethrower
Wrist Blaster
Heal 1 or 2
Dex 3 (doesn't allow sprint, just dex moves)
Stamina 2
Magnetic Plating
Blast Armor
Jetpack rocket
Thermal Visor (Sense 3 or perma sense)
One that I was thinking up :p :
Jump 2 or 3
Push 2
Pull 2
Sense 2 or 3
Speed 2 or 3
MT 1 or 2
Grip 1 or 2
Saber Offense 3
Saber Defense 3
Force Block 2 or 3
Saber Deflect 2
Lightsaber (obviously) single blade
Pistol 3
E-11 2
Disruptor 1 with a E-11 model and possibly a different sound. (Basically a sniper mode for the E-11)
Maybe a nade or 2 (Primary only)
100 hp 75 armor
Jedi speed
Dodge 2
Heal 2 or 3
125 FP
Maybe a bacta tank
Electrobinoculars
MandaloreBIC
03-12-2007, 04:44
I'm going to give my professional opinion and say that's not ever going to happen.
actully, it's all mapping
give the red hero 5x moar hp than he should have
set a trigger to detect number of players on team blue
now use a equation to dmg the red hero's hp by the number of blue players (max) that's NOT there
so it's LIKE he got extra hp per enemy player, but rly engine wise he received LESS dmg for every player on the other team
it's some crazy coding ****, but it'll work
actully, it's all mapping
give the red hero 5x moar hp than he should have
set a trigger to detect number of players on team blue
now use a equation to dmg the red hero's hp by the number of blue players (max) that's NOT there
so it's LIKE he got extra hp per enemy player, but rly engine wise he received LESS dmg for every player on the other team
it's some crazy coding ****, but it'll work
if you are doing 6 vs 1 having 100 more hp will serve for nothing
lol im thinking geonosis canyon droids have 15 hp sbd have 150 clones have 200 lol
MandaloreBIC
04-12-2007, 01:21
if you are doing 6 vs 1 having 100 more hp will serve for nothing
with cortosis, 100 hp is ALOT (say on a duel map)
It isn't just HP that makes the one class overpowered though; weaponry, classflags, attributes, holdables etc.
Andrew Past
04-12-2007, 09:38
It isn't just HP that makes the one class overpowered though; weaponry, classflags, attributes, holdables etc.
Shooting a pistol in one hand while deflecting/slashing with a lightsaber in the other? :p
Nah I just mean if all the other classes have E11 1 and you have E11 3, heal, dodge, etc. even with some HP knocked off you're going to win.
Not if the other team knows how to use there surroundings / flanking skills on the one guy. Teamwork > Skill the majority of time.
Not if the other team knows how to use there surroundings / flanking skills on the one guy. Teamwork > Skill the majority of time.
if one teams requires skill and the other doesnt, then its uneven
if one teams requires skill and the other doesnt, then its uneven
So your implying teamwork does not take skill?? If so your wrong.
So your implying teamwork does not take skill?? If so your wrong.
Yeah S1ck is right. If the classes are weak as hell then you have to teamwork in order to defeat that strong class. That is unless you're a real freaking beast.
But anyway, sounds like a good idea, although I have no idea how to make that. :x
WorldsLargestIpod
22-12-2007, 14:55
I think somone sugjested this before... but if you created a program that counted the number of 'many' units vs. the # of 'the one' units that would actually change the FA structure as more or less players entered between rounds.
For example, a map where Ani fights the 'jedi' alone.
If the server pop is 2, the game calculates that it's 1 generic vs. 1 ani, [logically] So the power of the Generic is raised and ani is weakened...
a server population of 5.. a 4v1, Ani is strengthened and the generics are weakened.
Golden Mando Bro
22-12-2007, 21:05
I don't know how this might work, but with the spectator class, do you think it would work to make a one (or just a couple) vs many FA? Ideas could be an alternate version of Doomgiver, other different missions involving Kyle, Dash, Luke, Vader, Boba, etc.
We could also do a few vs many. This would be good for FAs concering Delta squad or other elite clone units. I would love to see a FA where Delta squad is fighting a ton of droids. :D
Not really a good idea since it is very easy to kill someone no matter what weapon the weak side would get. even pistols are deadly.
ChipMunk
15-02-2008, 02:14
Wait a second, didnt Jedi Outcast have a mode like this? Jedi Master mode wasnt it? Everyone against the one Jedi Master.
Wait a second, didnt Jedi Outcast have a mode like this? Jedi Master mode wasnt it? Everyone against the one Jedi Master.
sigh..:rolleyes:
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